Comments on: “I wasn’t raped” – what? http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/ a movie. a movement. and up to you. Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:50:28 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Paradigm Shift » Blog Archive » Sexuality, Virginity & “Purity” Series Part 3: “I WASN’T RAPED” - WHAT? http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-416 Paradigm Shift » Blog Archive » Sexuality, Virginity & “Purity” Series Part 3: “I WASN’T RAPED” - WHAT? Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:14:35 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-416 [...] By Ingrid, Originally posted Whereisyourline.org [...] [...] By Ingrid, Originally posted Whereisyourline.org [...]

]]> By: Joe Samalin http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-377 Joe Samalin Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:11:49 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-377 (sad, bitter lol) yeah. gray rape was presented basically as (not me agreeing, validating or even wanting to engage or acknowledge in any way!) situations where two people hook up/have sex but they were both drunk and the woman (because all sex is hetero according to the article) is unsure what happened/what she wanted and maybe she regrets things and maybe something happened she didn't want to happen but it wasn't "real rape", it fell into the gray area of 'gray rape'. again, i think the nuanced discussion of what sexual violence is and how we listen or don't listen to survivors is very important, but the examples they show then in the article of gray rape in the article include situations where a woman says no multiple times and is ignored by the man she is with. Maybe just me, but wasn't seeing the gray there...Cosmo's official definition: "It refers to sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what." you know, it just happens. FYI the article link is below. Beware of triggers as it contains stories of assaults and a lot of stuff to potentially piss you off..... http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/tips-moves/new-kind-of-date-rape (sad, bitter lol) yeah. gray rape was presented basically as (not me agreeing, validating or even wanting to engage or acknowledge in any way!) situations where two people hook up/have sex but they were both drunk and the woman (because all sex is hetero according to the article) is unsure what happened/what she wanted and maybe she regrets things and maybe something happened she didn’t want to happen but it wasn’t “real rape”, it fell into the gray area of ‘gray rape’. again, i think the nuanced discussion of what sexual violence is and how we listen or don’t listen to survivors is very important, but the examples they show then in the article of gray rape in the article include situations where a woman says no multiple times and is ignored by the man she is with. Maybe just me, but wasn’t seeing the gray there…Cosmo’s official definition:
“It refers to sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what.” you know, it just happens. FYI the article link is below. Beware of triggers as it contains stories of assaults and a lot of stuff to potentially piss you off…..

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/tips-moves/new-kind-of-date-rape

]]> By: katkin http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-376 katkin Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:11:57 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-376 thank you ingrid for this post. i wish i'd had friends like you when i was in college. keep up the good work. thank you ingrid for this post. i wish i’d had friends like you when i was in college. keep up the good work.

]]> By: Jonathan Grove http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-375 Jonathan Grove Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:02:07 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-375 Thank you Ingrid for this post, and to echo comments of others, it is incredibly saddening to consider the number of women who have been victimized like your roommate. The two elements of your post and the comments following that stick with me the most are our societies response to survivors and to perpetrators. Like (I think) many folks, I have experienced some really terrible stuff in my life, but since sexual assault/rape is not part of my experience I am always hesitant to do more than offer survivors options and tools to regain their voice. That said, I totally hear your frustration that we as a society don't make room for or prioritize a conversation about what consent is (easy right? Enthusiastic, informed and sober to start with...), much less about what good sex should be. AND if we did, how much more exposed would those who want to "manufacture" consent, or just completely disregard another's wishes? LOTS! We do so much is our culture to pardon, excuse, camoflage and create as much confusion or "gray" area (Joe's comment) as possible so that it's easier to justify giving passes to perpetrators. I applaud your post and everyone's comments that seek to continue the conversation. I think Shira wrapped that thought up best actually... Talk, Keep Talking ("...even if our voices shake"), and Change. Thank you Ingrid for this post, and to echo comments of others, it is incredibly saddening to consider the number of women who have been victimized like your roommate.
The two elements of your post and the comments following that stick with me the most are our societies response to survivors and to perpetrators. Like (I think) many folks, I have experienced some really terrible stuff in my life, but since sexual assault/rape is not part of my experience I am always hesitant to do more than offer survivors options and tools to regain their voice. That said, I totally hear your frustration that we as a society don’t make room for or prioritize a conversation about what consent is (easy right? Enthusiastic, informed and sober to start with…), much less about what good sex should be. AND if we did, how much more exposed would those who want to “manufacture” consent, or just completely disregard another’s wishes? LOTS! We do so much is our culture to pardon, excuse, camoflage and create as much confusion or “gray” area (Joe’s comment) as possible so that it’s easier to justify giving passes to perpetrators.
I applaud your post and everyone’s comments that seek to continue the conversation. I think Shira wrapped that thought up best actually…
Talk, Keep Talking (”…even if our voices shake”), and Change.

]]> By: Ingrid http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-374 Ingrid Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:58:05 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-374 +Thanks Shira! Loving the energy, and we sure need some change... +Thanks Shira! Loving the energy, and we sure need some change…

]]> By: Ingrid http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-373 Ingrid Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:57:12 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-373 It's inspiring waking up to such amazing comments. My immune system got a natural boost from everyone's love! Thank you for checking my blog out, and leaving me feedback... Therese, I checked out the blog and the dvd "I was a teenage feminist" caught my eye. I definitely want to grab a copy, sounds really interesting. Good luck on your next documentary, can't wait to watch it. Jules, your right about people not seeing/respecting our lines. We all came out of a woman's pussy, so you would think people would not want to mistreat/hurt it. What kind of human goes around and drops drugs in woman's drinks so they can rape them? Logan, I agree with what you and Nancy on educating young people to speak up. No one taught me to speak up, especially with my parents always warning me to keep my mouth shut about their legal status, I was (and am) always scared to say the wrong thing. Growing up, I started using my voice more, letting people know what I have to say although I'm still learning how to express myself. Definitely want to bring this up for a future post... Joe, I agree that it's sad as hell to hear so many first time stories played out like that. And what constitutes as 'gray rape'? "Vanessa" was motivated by my blog to make a short film on her experience (Cinema Studies shoutout!). Also, thanks to my new roommate for trusting me with her story and helping me edit. Mad love to both of y'all. Thanks for the love and feedback, I'm going to go back to bed and nurse myself back to health... It’s inspiring waking up to such amazing comments. My immune system got a natural boost from everyone’s love! Thank you for checking my blog out, and leaving me feedback…

Therese, I checked out the blog and the dvd “I was a teenage feminist” caught my eye. I definitely want to grab a copy, sounds really interesting. Good luck on your next documentary, can’t wait to watch it.

Jules, your right about people not seeing/respecting our lines. We all came out of a woman’s pussy, so you would think people would not want to mistreat/hurt it. What kind of human goes around and drops drugs in woman’s drinks so they can rape them?

Logan, I agree with what you and Nancy on educating young people to speak up. No one taught me to speak up, especially with my parents always warning me to keep my mouth shut about their legal status, I was (and am) always scared to say the wrong thing. Growing up, I started using my voice more, letting people know what I have to say although I’m still learning how to express myself. Definitely want to bring this up for a future post…

Joe, I agree that it’s sad as hell to hear so many first time stories played out like that. And what constitutes as ‘gray rape’?

“Vanessa” was motivated by my blog to make a short film on her experience (Cinema Studies shoutout!). Also, thanks to my new roommate for trusting me with her story and helping me edit. Mad love to both of y’all.

Thanks for the love and feedback, I’m going to go back to bed and nurse myself back to health…

]]> By: Shira Tarrant http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-372 Shira Tarrant Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:18:59 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-372 Say it, Sister! You're raising important, difficult issues. We need to talk. Then we need to keep talking. Then we need change. Appreciation. Say it, Sister! You’re raising important, difficult issues. We need to talk. Then we need to keep talking. Then we need change. Appreciation.

]]> By: Joe Samalin http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-371 Joe Samalin Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:42:11 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-371 Great post, thank you. I especially love challenging and rethinking the language of 'losing' one's virginity... I agree Nancy and Logan - it is such an important discussion to have - and it is especially important for us all (especially men) to make space for an honest and open and difficult discussion that allows everyone to self-identify their own experiences (which The Line grapples with so well) while NOT in any way diminishing full accountability for that which is obviously sexual assault/rape. Not so long ago I was on a panel in NYC when Cosmo repackaged age old victim blaming under the label of 'gray rape'. Sigh. Sad as HELL to hear so many first time stories like this. So many. Thank you for sharing your story/stories and continuing the dialogue. Great post, thank you. I especially love challenging and rethinking the language of ‘losing’ one’s virginity…

I agree Nancy and Logan – it is such an important discussion to have – and it is especially important for us all (especially men) to make space for an honest and open and difficult discussion that allows everyone to self-identify their own experiences (which The Line grapples with so well) while NOT in any way diminishing full accountability for that which is obviously sexual assault/rape. Not so long ago I was on a panel in NYC when Cosmo repackaged age old victim blaming under the label of ‘gray rape’. Sigh. Sad as HELL to hear so many first time stories like this. So many.

Thank you for sharing your story/stories and continuing the dialogue.

]]> By: Nancy http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-370 Nancy Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:45:44 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-370 Thanks for your comments. Amazing stories you've gathered, Therese, and I can't wait to see the film. Jules, thanks for sharing. The fact that you Googled the word rape - incredible how your mind can play tricks on you for self-protection. Great advice, Logan, I totally agree that we need to teach (and learn) how to speak up and own your voice, but I also love Ingrid's point about not letting those who violate, manipulate, coerce and force off the hook, either. Although I agree labels tend to divide us and shut us down (I only use the word "rape" once in my film) we really need to own and acknowledge what rape is, and when it happens, and how it is part of a larger system. A system that minimizes the experience, normalizes it, and convinces us to stay quiet. "Having a line won't protect you" is one of the most poignant answers I've ever received after a screening. Although I don't like to dwell in that hopeless space, she's right. Speaking up and negotiating aren't always enough, your partner needs to listen and respect you, and we as a community need to hold each other accountable when that respect is breached. Thanks for your comments.

Amazing stories you’ve gathered, Therese, and I can’t wait to see the film. Jules, thanks for sharing. The fact that you Googled the word rape – incredible how your mind can play tricks on you for self-protection.

Great advice, Logan, I totally agree that we need to teach (and learn) how to speak up and own your voice, but I also love Ingrid’s point about not letting those who violate, manipulate, coerce and force off the hook, either. Although I agree labels tend to divide us and shut us down (I only use the word “rape” once in my film) we really need to own and acknowledge what rape is, and when it happens, and how it is part of a larger system. A system that minimizes the experience, normalizes it, and convinces us to stay quiet.

“Having a line won’t protect you” is one of the most poignant answers I’ve ever received after a screening. Although I don’t like to dwell in that hopeless space, she’s right. Speaking up and negotiating aren’t always enough, your partner needs to listen and respect you, and we as a community need to hold each other accountable when that respect is breached.

]]> By: Logan Levkoff, Ph.D. http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/i-wasnt-raped-what/comment-page-1/#comment-369 Logan Levkoff, Ph.D. Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:45:31 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1172#comment-369 This is incredibly difficult. There is no question that the experience wasn't 100% consensual from an emotional perspective. However, instead of judging/labeling, perhaps we use this as an opportunity to explore what we may have done differently in that situation - or what we we would want our daughters to do in that situation. I know that owning your voice (speaking up re: consent, pleasure, negotiation, protection, emotions) is essential for me personally and with my students. So I suppose the question is: "How do we teach young women (and men) to do this without feeling like they will lose something in the process?" Nonetheless, it's not an easy call. Nice post, Ingrid. Logan Logan Levkoff, Ph.D. Sexologist & Sexuality Educator www.loganlevkoff.com Twitter @LoganLevkoff This is incredibly difficult. There is no question that the experience wasn’t 100% consensual from an emotional perspective. However, instead of judging/labeling, perhaps we use this as an opportunity to explore what we may have done differently in that situation – or what we we would want our daughters to do in that situation. I know that owning your voice (speaking up re: consent, pleasure, negotiation, protection, emotions) is essential for me personally and with my students. So I suppose the question is: “How do we teach young women (and men) to do this without feeling like they will lose something in the process?” Nonetheless, it’s not an easy call.

Nice post, Ingrid.
Logan

Logan Levkoff, Ph.D.
Sexologist & Sexuality Educator
http://www.loganlevkoff.com
Twitter @LoganLevkoff

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