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	<title>Comments on: am I empowered, degraded, or both?</title>
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	<description>Empowering young leaders to end sexual violence.</description>
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		<title>By: where is your line? &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Trust: yes, because it is you</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-750</link>
		<dc:creator>where is your line? &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Trust: yes, because it is you</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-750</guid>
		<description>[...] reading “Am I empowered, degraded, or both?” we discussed at dinner that night what consent means. At the base we have the same view: there [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reading “Am I empowered, degraded, or both?” we discussed at dinner that night what consent means. At the base we have the same view: there [...] </p>
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		<title>By: where is your line? &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sex::Tech 2010 was complicated</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-749</link>
		<dc:creator>where is your line? &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sex::Tech 2010 was complicated</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 22:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-749</guid>
		<description>[...] oh yea, and BDSM and Feminism. Why label specific sex acts &#8220;feminist&#8221;? credit BDSM culture for how we talk about [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] oh yea, and BDSM and Feminism. Why label specific sex acts &#8220;feminist&#8221;? credit BDSM culture for how we talk about [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Julie Sunday</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-748</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Sunday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-748</guid>
		<description>I work with college students who are mostly pretty early in their sexual journeys and some are dipping their toes into BDSM. I think the best tool I have as a teacher to encourage them to explore and push into new realms of experience and (hopefully) pleasure is to have, and use, a safeword. That allows for less explicit discussion of things (for lots of younger people, they don&#039;t yet have language to say, &quot;I want you to tie my hands using this elaborate knotting and then spank me with this vegan paddle&quot; or whatever it is they want) but gives room for a trusting (and trustworthy) partner to find, push up against, and then be contained by boundaries. Under the best of circumstances they can say to their partner, &quot;I want you to do the things I say I wnat, try the things you want and to try things you think I might want but if I say &#039;stiletto&#039; then you have to stop.&quot; A partner who isn&#039;t a rapist isn&#039;t going to balk at that and will likely revel in the trust that&#039;s established by giving them permission to explore. In my experience, people don&#039;t have incredibly specific kinks until they&#039;re pretty experienced players to safewording is a good way to figure out what you like and don&#039;t like in a context of trust and with a limit that can grow with you. Just my two cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work with college students who are mostly pretty early in their sexual journeys and some are dipping their toes into BDSM. I think the best tool I have as a teacher to encourage them to explore and push into new realms of experience and (hopefully) pleasure is to have, and use, a safeword. That allows for less explicit discussion of things (for lots of younger people, they don&#8217;t yet have language to say, &#8220;I want you to tie my hands using this elaborate knotting and then spank me with this vegan paddle&#8221; or whatever it is they want) but gives room for a trusting (and trustworthy) partner to find, push up against, and then be contained by boundaries. Under the best of circumstances they can say to their partner, &#8220;I want you to do the things I say I wnat, try the things you want and to try things you think I might want but if I say &#8216;stiletto&#8217; then you have to stop.&#8221; A partner who isn&#8217;t a rapist isn&#8217;t going to balk at that and will likely revel in the trust that&#8217;s established by giving them permission to explore. In my experience, people don&#8217;t have incredibly specific kinks until they&#8217;re pretty experienced players to safewording is a good way to figure out what you like and don&#8217;t like in a context of trust and with a limit that can grow with you. Just my two cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Cesar</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-747</link>
		<dc:creator>Cesar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-747</guid>
		<description>@Marilla 
I agree with your statement &quot;sexual gratification stems from our identities, political and ideological...&quot;
However, saying that doesn&#039;t mean that one has to be feminist to be both female and gratified. I would hold up that sexual ethoses like Gorian and  &#039;50s roleplay offer gratification well outside the construct of female equality. What your political/ideological views are affect one&#039;s sexual identity, but, generally, don&#039;t make the majority of one&#039;s identity.

I had a very long conversation with my primary about this. She asserts that my feminism outside the bedroom is what allows for our sexual context. I think that my feminism is what attracts her to me (and allows me to be in her &quot;people bucket&quot;), but that isn&#039;t the source of my sexual etiquette (this could just be semantics).

@Shawna
The transgender issue is, of course, very complicated. Because it covers a very broad swath of people intersexed, FTM, MTF, pre-op, post-op and a variety of states of physical/psychological union on the individual&#039;s current state vs. ideal state. I don&#039;t mean it to be voyeuristic, rather, more along the lines of non-polar sex and gender identities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Marilla<br />
I agree with your statement &#8220;sexual gratification stems from our identities, political and ideological&#8230;&#8221;<br />
However, saying that doesn&#8217;t mean that one has to be feminist to be both female and gratified. I would hold up that sexual ethoses like Gorian and  &#8217;50s roleplay offer gratification well outside the construct of female equality. What your political/ideological views are affect one&#8217;s sexual identity, but, generally, don&#8217;t make the majority of one&#8217;s identity.</p>
<p>I had a very long conversation with my primary about this. She asserts that my feminism outside the bedroom is what allows for our sexual context. I think that my feminism is what attracts her to me (and allows me to be in her &#8220;people bucket&#8221;), but that isn&#8217;t the source of my sexual etiquette (this could just be semantics).</p>
<p>@Shawna<br />
The transgender issue is, of course, very complicated. Because it covers a very broad swath of people intersexed, FTM, MTF, pre-op, post-op and a variety of states of physical/psychological union on the individual&#8217;s current state vs. ideal state. I don&#8217;t mean it to be voyeuristic, rather, more along the lines of non-polar sex and gender identities.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilla</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-746</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-746</guid>
		<description>Hey everyone,

@sarah
I agree that whatever my friend likes in bed does not count as an excuse, and I don&#039;t think that she felt that way either. 

@Cesar
I have to differ from you in thinking that there is no connection between feminism and sexual etiquette. I think that sexual gratification stems from our identities, political and ideological, and feminism is definitely tied to that in terms of empowering oneself. 

@Critical Masculinities
I think what you&#039;re pointing to regarding a greater need to define rough sex play in this entry has a lot to do with how varied the responses were according to the people I asked. Some people completely agreed with my friend in that some forms of choking count, while others completely strayed from that. Perhaps this subject deserves an entire entry.

@Chad
There are a lot of factors to my friend&#039;s situation that I have not fully explained, but she has experienced what I would consider a pattern of violence with this (now ex-)boyfriend. It&#039;s also not the first partner either, so I appreciate the sentiment that as a friend it&#039;s my job to help her be safer.

Also, I don&#039;t really agree with your comment that &quot;Your current partner who engaged in rough sex with you without obtaining your consent could just as easily have been raping you... he is lucky that you do not consider it so.&quot; It&#039;s very true that if I were anyone else, who didn&#039;t feel so strongly about protecting her body or making it a priority, my thoughts would be different. Yet I do not in any way feel less empowered, I am not suppressing any trauma, and there is no reason to say to my partner, &quot;you should feel lucky because this was a legal and moral issue.&quot; A statement like that sounds malicious to me, and in some ways a violation of the feelings that I actually hold. Perhaps what needs to be emphasized most is what a commenter mentioned about defining consent for a single act versus trusting a person entirely. I fully trust my partner and have been in situations with him in the past in which I&#039;ve said, no, I can&#039;t do this anymore, and he&#039;s been more than willing to stop. All that said, I completely see that you are coming at this from a place of concern, and am also appreciative of the fact.

@re.sister.with.love
I agree with you that &quot;not every non-consensual act (sexual or otherwise) has the same degree of traumatic impact on an individual&quot;. 

Thanks so much for the comments, and I am really encouraged to hear from so many of you that &quot;Communication doesn&#039;t hurt the moment&quot; and that mutual attention is important. Will start working on my own yes/maybe/no list soon!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey everyone,</p>
<p>@sarah<br />
I agree that whatever my friend likes in bed does not count as an excuse, and I don&#8217;t think that she felt that way either. </p>
<p>@Cesar<br />
I have to differ from you in thinking that there is no connection between feminism and sexual etiquette. I think that sexual gratification stems from our identities, political and ideological, and feminism is definitely tied to that in terms of empowering oneself. </p>
<p>@Critical Masculinities<br />
I think what you&#8217;re pointing to regarding a greater need to define rough sex play in this entry has a lot to do with how varied the responses were according to the people I asked. Some people completely agreed with my friend in that some forms of choking count, while others completely strayed from that. Perhaps this subject deserves an entire entry.</p>
<p>@Chad<br />
There are a lot of factors to my friend&#8217;s situation that I have not fully explained, but she has experienced what I would consider a pattern of violence with this (now ex-)boyfriend. It&#8217;s also not the first partner either, so I appreciate the sentiment that as a friend it&#8217;s my job to help her be safer.</p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t really agree with your comment that &#8220;Your current partner who engaged in rough sex with you without obtaining your consent could just as easily have been raping you&#8230; he is lucky that you do not consider it so.&#8221; It&#8217;s very true that if I were anyone else, who didn&#8217;t feel so strongly about protecting her body or making it a priority, my thoughts would be different. Yet I do not in any way feel less empowered, I am not suppressing any trauma, and there is no reason to say to my partner, &#8220;you should feel lucky because this was a legal and moral issue.&#8221; A statement like that sounds malicious to me, and in some ways a violation of the feelings that I actually hold. Perhaps what needs to be emphasized most is what a commenter mentioned about defining consent for a single act versus trusting a person entirely. I fully trust my partner and have been in situations with him in the past in which I&#8217;ve said, no, I can&#8217;t do this anymore, and he&#8217;s been more than willing to stop. All that said, I completely see that you are coming at this from a place of concern, and am also appreciative of the fact.</p>
<p>@re.sister.with.love<br />
I agree with you that &#8220;not every non-consensual act (sexual or otherwise) has the same degree of traumatic impact on an individual&#8221;. </p>
<p>Thanks so much for the comments, and I am really encouraged to hear from so many of you that &#8220;Communication doesn&#8217;t hurt the moment&#8221; and that mutual attention is important. Will start working on my own yes/maybe/no list soon!</p>
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		<title>By: re.sister.with.love</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-745</link>
		<dc:creator>re.sister.with.love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-745</guid>
		<description>good post, and interesting discussion. I love The Line campaign. I have to say, though, that I disagree with some of the comments about Sarah&#039;s account of some situations where consent is obtained after the act. 
I think that not every non-consensual act (sexual or otherwise) has the same degree of traumatic impact on an individual, and when as feminists and sex educators, we tell people that they experienced assault when they do not perceive it that way, we are forcing a story on them in place of their own.
I think it is contextual, and I really like @Cesar&#039;s framing of the two buckets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good post, and interesting discussion. I love The Line campaign. I have to say, though, that I disagree with some of the comments about Sarah&#8217;s account of some situations where consent is obtained after the act.<br />
I think that not every non-consensual act (sexual or otherwise) has the same degree of traumatic impact on an individual, and when as feminists and sex educators, we tell people that they experienced assault when they do not perceive it that way, we are forcing a story on them in place of their own.<br />
I think it is contextual, and I really like @Cesar&#8217;s framing of the two buckets.</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-744</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-744</guid>
		<description>Thanks for complicating the discussion, and I certainly wasn&#039;t trying to be voyeuristic... but I appreciate you pointing out the myriad ways to express and experience gender, privilege, survival, freedom, pain and pleasure. The more elbow room, the better!

I do wonder how college students are grappling with these spaces and intersections?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for complicating the discussion, and I certainly wasn&#8217;t trying to be voyeuristic&#8230; but I appreciate you pointing out the myriad ways to express and experience gender, privilege, survival, freedom, pain and pleasure. The more elbow room, the better!</p>
<p>I do wonder how college students are grappling with these spaces and intersections?</p>
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		<title>By: Shawna</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-743</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-743</guid>
		<description>Great discussion, everyone!

@Cesar: I really love your input. I love the idea of things I consent to allow and people I consent to trust. That definitely rang a bell with me. 

@Nancy: I agree with Cesar&#039;s comments that everyone can work toward that level of freedom. I appreciate your acknowledgement that certain groups of people (both cisgender and transgender women especially) are often victimized and objectified, but I don&#039;t think it is that simple. Intersectionality plays a huge role in who has power in sexual relationships. For example, men of color are often sexualized in ways that affect how they move in the world (think the &quot;Latin Lover&quot; stereotype, or pictures of oiled up, shirtless black hip-hop artists--while associated with maleness, they are still objectified). For me, as a white cisgender woman dating two men of color, both of vastly differently regarded racial/ethnic backgrounds--who has sexual agency? Who has power? The intersections of privilege and oppression are myriad and varied and require constant navigation. 

As a survivor of an emotionally abusive, coercive relationship, I can say that I work toward two buckets every day. Sometimes the lines between them are more distinct than others, but reaching for freedom every day is possible, and attainable for at least this survivor! :)

@everyone In this discussion of consent and empowerment, I also wanted to complicate the discussion of gender a little bit. Several people have referred to &quot;women, men, and transfolks,&quot; as if trans people are automatically a third gender that is not compatible with the words &quot;woman&quot; or &quot;man.&quot; This feels (to me) voyeuristic and assuming, something I hope that all of us working for consent can agree is not the goal. Owning my own cisgender privilege here, I will just say that in my experience, gender is much more complicated than that, and that while some people identify as trans and not man or woman, others identify as trans AND man or woman. And of course, there are people that don&#039;t identify with any of the labels I&#039;ve used thus far, or combine them in other ways. So, I just wanted to complicate the discussion of gender and consent a little more and hopefully leave a bit more gender elbow-room.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion, everyone!</p>
<p>@Cesar: I really love your input. I love the idea of things I consent to allow and people I consent to trust. That definitely rang a bell with me. </p>
<p>@Nancy: I agree with Cesar&#8217;s comments that everyone can work toward that level of freedom. I appreciate your acknowledgement that certain groups of people (both cisgender and transgender women especially) are often victimized and objectified, but I don&#8217;t think it is that simple. Intersectionality plays a huge role in who has power in sexual relationships. For example, men of color are often sexualized in ways that affect how they move in the world (think the &#8220;Latin Lover&#8221; stereotype, or pictures of oiled up, shirtless black hip-hop artists&#8211;while associated with maleness, they are still objectified). For me, as a white cisgender woman dating two men of color, both of vastly differently regarded racial/ethnic backgrounds&#8211;who has sexual agency? Who has power? The intersections of privilege and oppression are myriad and varied and require constant navigation. </p>
<p>As a survivor of an emotionally abusive, coercive relationship, I can say that I work toward two buckets every day. Sometimes the lines between them are more distinct than others, but reaching for freedom every day is possible, and attainable for at least this survivor! <img src='http://whereisyourline.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@everyone In this discussion of consent and empowerment, I also wanted to complicate the discussion of gender a little bit. Several people have referred to &#8220;women, men, and transfolks,&#8221; as if trans people are automatically a third gender that is not compatible with the words &#8220;woman&#8221; or &#8220;man.&#8221; This feels (to me) voyeuristic and assuming, something I hope that all of us working for consent can agree is not the goal. Owning my own cisgender privilege here, I will just say that in my experience, gender is much more complicated than that, and that while some people identify as trans and not man or woman, others identify as trans AND man or woman. And of course, there are people that don&#8217;t identify with any of the labels I&#8217;ve used thus far, or combine them in other ways. So, I just wanted to complicate the discussion of gender and consent a little more and hopefully leave a bit more gender elbow-room.</p>
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		<title>By: Cesar</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-742</link>
		<dc:creator>Cesar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-742</guid>
		<description>@nancy - feel free to use whatever you want. 
It takes time and introspection to reach comfort with your sexuality and what you need from a partner. I don&#039;t think anyone is incapable of reaching that level of freedom, but the road is harder for some people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@nancy &#8211; feel free to use whatever you want.<br />
It takes time and introspection to reach comfort with your sexuality and what you need from a partner. I don&#8217;t think anyone is incapable of reaching that level of freedom, but the road is harder for some people.</p>
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		<title>By: Carmen</title>
		<link>http://whereisyourline.org/2010/02/am-i-empowered-degraded-or-both/comment-page-1/#comment-741</link>
		<dc:creator>Carmen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whereisyourline.org/?p=1097#comment-741</guid>
		<description>One of my favorite parts of BDSM is that it is a culture built around discussion and open dialogue about sexuality, pain, etc. Every year the queer group on my campus hosts S&amp;M 101 with the DC Leatherboys, and it&#039;s great. Feeling that you have the right to explore safely, no matter whom your partner, is a great part of that culture.

I think it is also important to remember that empowerment is individual. If you feel empowered by your actions, that is all that matters.

Great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my favorite parts of BDSM is that it is a culture built around discussion and open dialogue about sexuality, pain, etc. Every year the queer group on my campus hosts S&amp;M 101 with the DC Leatherboys, and it&#8217;s great. Feeling that you have the right to explore safely, no matter whom your partner, is a great part of that culture.</p>
<p>I think it is also important to remember that empowerment is individual. If you feel empowered by your actions, that is all that matters.</p>
<p>Great post!</p>
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