Comments on: It’s Implied… + Here’s Why! http://whereisyourline.org/2009/12/its-implied-heres-why/ a movie. a movement. and up to you. Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:50:28 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Nancy http://whereisyourline.org/2009/12/its-implied-heres-why/comment-page-1/#comment-252 Nancy Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:43:47 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=831#comment-252 Thanks, Stephen and Jarrod for weighing in. Highlighting (mis)interpretation, cultural norms and the different lenses we bring to every scenario brings to light the dangers of assuming you are understanding a situation without clarifying verbally. Thanks, Stephen and Jarrod for weighing in. Highlighting (mis)interpretation, cultural norms and the different lenses we bring to every scenario brings to light the dangers of assuming you are understanding a situation without clarifying verbally.

]]> By: Jerrod http://whereisyourline.org/2009/12/its-implied-heres-why/comment-page-1/#comment-250 Jerrod Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:15:15 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=831#comment-250 When viewing the post as a whole, I can agree with the message in theory. I do believe that there are times when body language sends a message, especially with someone whom you've been sexual with before. However, there are some faulty assumptions in the post that could lead to very unhealthy situations. "my words and actions convey a meaning from which people will naturally draw my intentions." Not always. Just because someone is smiling at you, leaning in close during your conversation or touching your arm doesn't necessarily mean anything. Maybe they are smiling because they are nervous or uncomfortable, like in Japan. Maybe they are hard of hearing, the music is too loud or you are speaking too softly. Maybe they touch everyone on the arm, or maybe they are too drunk to stand up straight. "Body language is often a very accurate gauge for testing the waters and making or communicating sexual decisions & desires." There is pretty convincing research that men misinterpret women's body language frequently, and even more so when under the influence of alcohol. Also, there is an assumption that body language is universal which it is not. Getting a thumbs up from someone that was raised in the United States probably means "Good job" or some other way of communicating "go ahead" where as in other parts of the world it means "f@#! you!" I appreciate your thoughtfulness to the subject as negotiating consent and sexual boundaries can be uncomfortable for some. That is why communication is important. If you don't know if someone wants what you are planning to do or you don't know what they like, ask. If they are not willing to verbalize consent or talk about what they want, maybe you should take a step back and rethink what's going on. It is true that sometimes a yes is coerced or forced, which means that consent was not given and a crime occurred. Also, on most college campuses across the country what is described in this post would be considered sexual assault because the initiator has to obtain affirmative verbal consent that what they are going to do is ok. I don't think the issue is simple enough to say anytime someone says yes that it's consent, but it's certainly not appropriate to just rely on body language. I do believe that what you prescribe in the last few paragraphs is a responsible way to approach the situation, but I am afraid most people will read that post and leave with the idea that all you need to do is think that they wanted it because of the way they were acting or flirting. Body language is not a good predictor of desire. People are notoriously poor at reading and interpreting body language and it is not universal like implied in the post. When viewing the post as a whole, I can agree with the message in theory. I do believe that there are times when body language sends a message, especially with someone whom you’ve been sexual with before. However, there are some faulty assumptions in the post that could lead to very unhealthy situations. “my words and actions convey a meaning from which people will naturally draw my intentions.” Not always. Just because someone is smiling at you, leaning in close during your conversation or touching your arm doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Maybe they are smiling because they are nervous or uncomfortable, like in Japan. Maybe they are hard of hearing, the music is too loud or you are speaking too softly. Maybe they touch everyone on the arm, or maybe they are too drunk to stand up straight. “Body language is often a very accurate gauge for testing the waters and making or communicating sexual decisions & desires.” There is pretty convincing research that men misinterpret women’s body language frequently, and even more so when under the influence of alcohol. Also, there is an assumption that body language is universal which it is not. Getting a thumbs up from someone that was raised in the United States probably means “Good job” or some other way of communicating “go ahead” where as in other parts of the world it means “f@#! you!” I appreciate your thoughtfulness to the subject as negotiating consent and sexual boundaries can be uncomfortable for some. That is why communication is important. If you don’t know if someone wants what you are planning to do or you don’t know what they like, ask. If they are not willing to verbalize consent or talk about what they want, maybe you should take a step back and rethink what’s going on. It is true that sometimes a yes is coerced or forced, which means that consent was not given and a crime occurred. Also, on most college campuses across the country what is described in this post would be considered sexual assault because the initiator has to obtain affirmative verbal consent that what they are going to do is ok. I don’t think the issue is simple enough to say anytime someone says yes that it’s consent, but it’s certainly not appropriate to just rely on body language. I do believe that what you prescribe in the last few paragraphs is a responsible way to approach the situation, but I am afraid most people will read that post and leave with the idea that all you need to do is think that they wanted it because of the way they were acting or flirting. Body language is not a good predictor of desire. People are notoriously poor at reading and interpreting body language and it is not universal like implied in the post.

]]> By: Stephen Montagna http://whereisyourline.org/2009/12/its-implied-heres-why/comment-page-1/#comment-249 Stephen Montagna Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:05:30 +0000 http://whereisyourline.org/?p=831#comment-249 "Broadly speaking, my words and actions convey a meaning from which people will naturally draw my intentions, without my always having to be explicit" I feel compelled to call you on this; I think you're heart may be in the right place, but what you wrote is a stunning example of rape culture thinking. What a place the world would be if everyone could read each other's minds; how tranquil and content we'd all be if whenever anyone exhibited body language we would all naturally draw the same conclusions as to what that body language meant. If you're in public, look around you right now. Everywhere, people are sending messages with their body language. What are those messages? You don't know. There is no way you can really know without checking in with the person directly; anything else is just you drawing your own conclusions. Ever have someone ask you how you're feeling, and then when you tell them, they don't believe you? Then they say "no, you're ___." They essentially decide for you what you are feeling (or, who you are, what you want). Do you know how disempowering that can feel? How aggravating? This is just a hint of what a survivor of sexual assault has experienced. Judges, sitting on the bench, have tossed out cases because they determined victims had led the defendant on with sexually aggressive behavior. In one such case (this was many years ago, in Canada), the victim was a three year old. What on earth does a three year old know about sexuality? Nothing. What was at play was one person's behavior being assessed through the lens of someone else. When we do that, we fill in the blanks with our own belief systems, our own reference points, our own wants and needs. This can be a dangerous thing. But here's the real catch; as I have said to workshop participants: "if you're so confident that you're reading the signals correctly, if you know for certain that they are interested and want to (fill in the blank with whatever activity you're thinking of here), then there's no risk in asking the question, is there?" _____________ Stephen Montagna Violence Prevention Communications Coordinator Wisconsin Coalition Against Sexual Assault (WCASA) Madison, WI 53703 stephenm@wcasa.org http://www.wcasa.org/ “Broadly speaking, my words and actions convey a meaning from which people will naturally draw my intentions, without my always having to be explicit”

I feel compelled to call you on this; I think you’re heart may be in the right place, but what you wrote is a stunning example of rape culture thinking.

What a place the world would be if everyone could read each other’s minds; how tranquil and content we’d all be if whenever anyone exhibited body language we would all naturally draw the same conclusions as to what that body language meant.

If you’re in public, look around you right now. Everywhere, people are sending messages with their body language. What are those messages? You don’t know. There is no way you can really know without checking in with the person directly; anything else is just you drawing your own conclusions.

Ever have someone ask you how you’re feeling, and then when you tell them, they don’t believe you? Then they say “no, you’re ___.” They essentially decide for you what you are feeling (or, who you are, what you want). Do you know how disempowering that can feel? How aggravating? This is just a hint of what a survivor of sexual assault has experienced.

Judges, sitting on the bench, have tossed out cases because they determined victims had led the defendant on with sexually aggressive behavior. In one such case (this was many years ago, in Canada), the victim was a three year old.

What on earth does a three year old know about sexuality? Nothing. What was at play was one person’s behavior being assessed through the lens of someone else. When we do that, we fill in the blanks with our own belief systems, our own reference points, our own wants and needs. This can be a dangerous thing.

But here’s the real catch; as I have said to workshop participants: “if you’re so confident that you’re reading the signals correctly, if you know for certain that they are interested and want to (fill in the blank with whatever activity you’re thinking of here), then there’s no risk in asking the question, is there?”

_____________

Stephen Montagna
Violence Prevention Communications Coordinator
Wisconsin Coalition Against Sexual Assault (WCASA)
Madison, WI 53703
stephenm@wcasa.org
http://www.wcasa.org/

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